[求助]Barn Sour Horse

Jose,

更多的問題需要你考慮. 請你描述你所謂的 Barn Sour 問題, 列出一些你想要改善的行為. 如此我們可以考慮開始訓練的計畫. 請看下面的回應.

我覺得這個 Clicker Group 是目前最理性地解決問題的一群.

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Because of my background with training predator species, mostly dogs and cats, I have always had to consider what the animal wants to work for. How can I make the time working with me more valuable to this animal than the alternative? I find traditional horse training gives little to no consideration to this concept. Something I had to learn when I started working with horses was that stopping a session could be reinforcing to the horse. Up to that point all the animals I had been working with, my walking away would have been a negative punishment.

So when I consider the "Barn Sour" horse I would like a better description of the Behavior the client wants to change. The term barn sour is applied to many behaviors. The first thing I like to do is describe the behavior one wants to change. I want to hear only the observable measurable behavior, not interpretations of those behaviors. (Yeah, I'm a behaviorist in my approach) Then we can design a program to address those specific behaviors. Is the horse bolting, rearing, refusing to turn, or what?  Is there a point on the trail beyond which the horse will not go? Does the horse behave the same way when accompanied by other horses? Is the behavior different at different times during the day?

One thing your friend might consider is to have a few friends help out by taking their horses (preferably buddies of his horse) to a predetermined location not too far from the stable. They should be just inside the problem horses geographic comfort zone. He rides or leads his horse out to meet up with the herd. they ride about a bit and do things the horse likes. Then he leaves the herd to go back to the stable. This would be just a tiny tiny part of a more comprehensive rehabilitation program. Maybe he should ride or lead the horse away from the barn to feed. What is the housing situation for this horse? Wow often is he taken away from the barn area? What happens when he is taken out? From my experience you would be rehabilitating the owner, as much if not more than the horse.
 
I use a herding whistle to announce to the herd that I have arrived. The more horses I work with the more answers I get when I whistle my arrival tune.

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More Stories.

請看她灰熊的遭遇. Horses do things for a reason. It is the rider's responsibility to help them out.

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I don't have any magic solutions for "barn sour" either, but I will share some thoughts and experiences.

Lots of people have wondered what "barn sour" meant in this discussion. I'm going to define "barn sour" as a horse that gets very upset and quits listening to his rider/handler when asked to leave his area of comfort by himself.

I do think that horses that display this behaviour are doing it because they feel vulnerable away from the herd or familiar surroundings. I have to ask myself why it is that they aren't comfortable, and often, it is coming from me. I really do think that horses need a "leader", and personally, I define that as being the partner in our relationship that makes the decisions and keeps us both safe. I think that my horse really needs to trust that I am aware of what's going on, that I will deal with it, and I will keep us both safe. This relationship isn't built over night.

I live in the Yukon Territory, and litterally have thousands of miles of wilderness at my back door. I do run into all kinds of wildlife when I ride. Honestly, it is one of the reasons why I don't ride alone a lot. That being said though, all my horses will happily leave the yard by themselves when I ask.

Years ago, I ignored what my horse was trying to tell me about going out the back trail. At the time, I interpreted Misty's behaviour as being "really bad"! (before I found clicker :-) After a big fight and lots of circles and back-ups and near rears, I looked up to see a sow grizzly bear with twin cubs about 50 metres down the trail. I broke every rule in the bear book, turned Misty around and let her leave at a dead run. I really don't know who was more scared, me or my horse!

After that little experience, Misty went through a long period where leaving the yard was simply not on! It took me a while to gain Misty's trust and confidence that I was in fact "the leader", and would be aware enough of our surroundings to keep us both safe. She's pretty darned good now. Last summer I met a black bear and she barely flicked an ear. This time though, I was aware enough of my surroundings that I saw the bear before she did, and I drew the bear to her attention. After the grizzly experience, I made Misty a promise that I would be better prepared and more aware, and I have kept that promise.

For her to begin retraining me, we would only go as far as Misty was comfortable. If that was just up the driveway, then that was my trail ride for the day. In the words of Alexandra, I didn't allow Misty to demonstrate behaviour I didn't want. So, I would ride (or walk) out, and when she started to get nervous, we turned around, and practiced some of the exercises that she knew well. That might be head lowering, moving her hip over, targeting, "touch the goblins" or whatever seemed to be needed at the time.

I also worked on one rein riding, sliding down the rein and taking her hips. Again, I did this just at the edge of her comfort bubble. I didn't wait until she was really upset before practicing any of these exercises or techniques.

We went out and back a zillion times (well, lots anyways), and I was almost suprised one day when I realized we had gone down the road to "the point", without any stress or anxiety. Over time, she had simply built trust in me, and I had become the "boss mare" that kept us both safe. I had greatly improved my awareness skills, and never hesitated to draw Misty's attention to the dog in the bush, the rabbit in the willow, the car I could hear coming or the canoe gliding silently along the river bank. Every time I made sure she was aware of something out of the ordinary, she seemed to become more comfortable that I wasn't missing important stuff which might lead to her becoming dinner!

Of course I used my clicker, cause that's what I do, but I think the real breakthrough came from my own awareness and calmness. Once I really paid attention to what was hiding in my surroundings, I became a better rider, and rode in the present. Misty happily handed over the responsibility of being the boss, and she became the one that was happy to just "go for a trail ride".

We had another horse who was terrified of the little wooden bridge that we have to ride over. He would really freak out, bucking and rearing and trying to throw himself off! My husband Tom worked with him and got him over his fear, but Tom didn't get me over my fear! Every time we rode out, I would start thinking "oh crap, here comes the bridge". Then I'd catch myself and try to bury the thought. Didn't work. The horse knew I was anxious, and so he became anxious cause I was confirming for him that the bridge was scary. We finally solved this one by me getting off and walking accross the bridge. I am much more comfortable handling an upset horse from the ground than I am from the saddle. I got off to walk across the bridge every single time untill one day I was so busy telling Tom a story that I wasn't paying attention and just rode across the bridge. I wasn't worried, so neither was my horse.

Yesterday I was playing with my 10 year old grand-daughter and her 10 year old gelding. Reecie's previous owner gave him lots of cookies, but no rules. Hence, he is a terrible mugger, so we need to fix that. I was playing "the adults are talking" and letting Meredith give the cookie. I had her practicing her best cookie delivery by stepping into Reecie's shoulder before unfolding her arm. At first he didn't move, but I told her to think of having a bubble around her that bounced Reecie back. Next time, it was perfect. Meredith loved the image - what 10 year old doesn't want to bounce people and things off their bubble?

My point with all of these stories is that I think our horses are far more intuitive of our intent or lack of confidence, or fear, or concern than we give them credit for. I have observed that the horse that doesn't want to leave the yard maybe isn't confident that his handler/rider is aware enough to keep him safe, and I think we need to respect that. If our horse won't leave the yard, maybe that is a reflection on us?

Play with your horse where you can, not where you can't. Work from the ground, take your time and have fun.

I'm new to this group, but I sure am enjoying the discussion. Thanks for the opportunity to chat and think!

Elsie
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Jose,

I have a clicker friend (very very experienced one, highly creditable, with lots of experiences in behavior science and equine management) who will travel to Long Island on 4/18. She offers to see you and see what she can do with your situation. I wonder if you're open with this offer.

Let me know.

HP

QUOTE:

以下是引用hppeng在2010/3/16 2:02:00的发言：
Jose,

I have a clicker friend (very very experienced one, highly creditable, with lots of experiences in behavior science and equine management) who will travel to Long Island on 4/18. She offers to see you and see what she can do with your situation. I wonder if you're open with this offer.

Let me know.

HP

Hp,

I might be in Vancouver that weekend, but I can let you know in a couple of days.

I would love to meet with her, can you find out how much it would cost? thanks. I'll let you know for sure.

I will try to do different things with him on the property.

he certainly doesn't snarl at anyone or anything. he just refuses

>在此臭美一下, 我現在帶馬出場時都不用牽馬索,

看你的视频N次，很羡慕，在小场地我也不用牵马索，它也会跟着我

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/3ntwCdF8uiM/

HP,

你这哪里是在玩马，也太专业了，太强了，你们这根本就是在研究马的行为学

其实 Ranger 没有那么多毛病，主要是马主太弱，骑不了它，把它养成这些坏习惯，它主要是欠揍，最近受你"不强迫"马的影响，让它自以为是老大，今天我重新对它采取以往的强硬镇压，先控制住主动权，再带它出马场，它已经没有抗拒了，哈哈

正如你朋友说的“I really do think that horses need a "leader", and personally”

请看在我的威逼下，带它轻松出场

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/AVEi5epm0og/

Elsie 还是新人啊

 请看Ranger安静备马视频

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/0tm49lrSKKg/

[求助]Barn Sour Horse

QUOTE:

以下是引用JOSE在2010/3/16 7:11:00的发言：

正如你朋友说的“I really do think that horses need a "leader", and personally”

请看在我的威逼下，带它轻松出场

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/AVEi5epm0og/

只能看到土豆碟上标着“轻松出场”，37秒。

内容看不到。

不知道是否只我如此？

QUOTE:

以下是引用JOSE在2010/3/16 7:24:00的发言：

 请看Ranger安静备马视频

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/0tm49lrSKKg/

此碟“备马”

2：36，但看不了内容。

调教良好的马对备鞍流程熟练操作的人都是很配合的。

QUOTE:

以下是引用无缺在2010/3/16 8:32:00的发言：

此碟“备马”

2：36，但看不了内容。

调教良好的马对备鞍流程熟练操作的人都是很配合的。

是的，它是匹有很好调教的马，它"barn sour" 是被JOSE操怕的

发的这么辛苦都看不到

不知H版是否看得到，JOSE的文字很烂，很难表达马的行为

帅哥文字简练，时尚，不拖泥带水，表达意思也有启发性，看着很开心。

不要过谦啊！期待多的照片，视频及文字。

工作间隙，看帅哥的片片一会儿感觉在管理规范的马术俱乐部，一会儿跟随着去郊野闲逛。[em02]

QUOTE:

以下是引用JOSE在2010/3/16 9:20:00的发言：

发的这么辛苦都看不到

不知H版是否看得到，JOSE的文字很烂，很难表达马的行为

我看得到. Ranger 從容不迫, 十分配合, 看不出是 Barn Sour 的馬.

Jose,

是不是我在講 "不強迫", "讓馬有選擇" 的觀念時講得太輕鬆? 我應該補充一點, 這種馬與人有親密關係的畫面, 不是一天兩天, 或是一個月兩個月可以速成的. 慢慢地耕耘, 合理的期待, 讓它自然發生.

一點感覺. 如果你突然讓 Ranger 開始可以自由選擇, 它一定會覺得意外, 也會開始嘗試這嘗試那. 這時可要考驗訓練的智慧, 如何導引馬匹往我們心想的方向前進.

HP

翻譯一下下文, 相信對馬友有幫助.文筆不佳,請包涵.

I don't have any magic solutions for "barn sour" either, but I will share some thoughts and experiences.

我對 barn sour 沒有魔術處方, 但我願意分享一些想法與經驗.

Lots of people have wondered what "barn sour" meant in this discussion. I'm going to define "barn sour" as a horse that gets very upset and quits listening to his rider/handler when asked to leave his area of comfort by himself.

許多人對 barn sour 所指的意義有所疑問,我在此對 barn sour 下個定義 :是馬在離開熟悉舒適環境時, 開始情緒不安並停止聽從主人命令的現象.

I do think that horses that display this behaviour are doing it because they feel vulnerable away from the herd or familiar surroundings. I have to ask myself why it is that they aren't comfortable, and often, it is coming from me. I really do think that horses need a "leader", and personally, I define that as being the partner in our relationship that makes the decisions and keeps us both safe. I think that my horse really needs to trust that I am aware of what's going on, that I will deal with it, and I will keep us both safe. This relationship isn't built over night.

我強烈認為,馬有這種行為表現時,起因於他們遠離馬群或熟悉環境而帶來的不安全與易受傷害的感覺.我必須自問,為什麼馬感到不安? 通常, 引起他們不安的原因是我.我認為,馬總是需要一位領導者,我私下以為, 所謂的領導者,是一位能做出適當決定, 讓彼此能處於安全環境的伴侶. 我相信我的馬對於我能完全掌握週遭環境的能力有完全的信任與依賴.同時, 我願意處理所有的情況, 讓我與馬身處安全之地. 這種信任的關係不是一夜之間可以建立的.

I live in the Yukon Territory, and litterally have thousands of miles of wilderness at my back door. I do run into all kinds of wildlife when I ride. Honestly, it is one of the reasons why I don't ride alone a lot. That being said though, all my horses will happily leave the yard by themselves when I ask.

我住在極地育空區,後門便是數千哩廣的荒地.當我野騎時, 我常遇見各種野生動物. 這也是我不常獨自騎馬的一個原因.即使如此,我所有的馬在我要求前往野騎時, 他們都樂於前往.

Years ago, I ignored what my horse was trying to tell me about going out the back trail. At the time, I interpreted Misty's behaviour as being "really bad"! (before I found clicker :-) After a big fight and lots of circles and back-ups and near rears, I looked up to see a sow grizzly bear with twin cubs about 50 metres down the trail. I broke every rule in the bear book, turned Misty around and let her leave at a dead run. I really don't know who was more scared, me or my horse!

數年前,我忽略了我的馬在我們野騎時想要告訴我的事. 我把 Misty (馬名)想要表達的意見當成它只是"使壞" (當時我還不知響片訓練).在與我的馬使勁較量,以及大量的要它轉圈,後退,甚至幾乎要他起揚之後,我往前方一看,看見一隻母灰熊帶著兩隻幼熊.離我們約 50 米遠.我犯了所有與熊保持距離的錯,我立刻與 Misty 掉頭, 讓它狂奔.我不知道當時是我比較怕還是我的馬比較怕.

註: 灰熊在該區是極危險的動物,母熊帶小熊, 危險加三級.

谢谢版主的翻译，终于弄清什么是“barn sour ”

慰问受伤的手指！

深感英文还要提高！你们继续讨论啊！ 

Jose,

Some Funny Video for you. If Ranger does this with you, I'm sure he is not to be "barn sour" because he is having so much fun with you.

href="http://www.tudou.com/v/No3ZV_W3kco">http://www.tudou.com/v/No3ZV_W3kco

HP