我開始懷疑“自然驯马法”...

HP

我的意見是世界上最大的迷信是盲目地去相信权威﹐风马牛不相及(牧牛、马的方法不一样)。

老鼠是老鼠，马是马，老鼠是肉食的，会吃同类的动物，它们的心理会和马一样吗?

马术的第一课是：马是什么?  马是群居的，素食的，视自身为猎物，容易受惊便奔跑的动物。

马拥有相等于人类4-6岁的智商，老鼠有吗?  马的行为取决于它的生理和心理，不同的动物有不同的意识形态，怎么可以用老鼠实验来解释马或人的行为? 

自然馴馬法不是一種發明﹐它是在馬群中自然行為的一種發現﹐Monty Roberts也強調這一點﹐既然馬兒學習不了人的語言﹐我們得學習它的。自然馴馬法只不過是用了它本身的語言符號﹐使用了他所熟悉的肢體動作﹐這就是所謂的馬語﹐馬語讓我們利用來跟馬兒交流和引導﹐從而讓它們接受我們的工作指令。

自然馴馬法的第一課是﹕認識馬兒﹐認識它們的生理和心理﹐了解它們的行為模式﹐知道它們的局限﹐記住它們的各種表情和眼神。

>能否给出实验的出处或链接？灯闪后给老鼠多久的反应时间，才开始电击？

我是轉述 Jesus 在 Poisoned Cue 錄象裡面舉的例子.具體的文獻可能要去搜索一陣. Jesus 用這個例子時,是拿來當 Negative Reinforcement 的案例.

>這就是所謂的馬語

我的了解,所謂的馬語,是自然訓馬術創造出來的名詞.回歸到科學的辨證,便是 Operand Conditioning.

QUOTE:

以下是引用hppeng在2009/12/17 13:29:00的发言：

>這就是所謂的馬語

我的了解,所謂的馬語,是自然訓馬術創造出來的名詞.回歸到科學的辨證,便是 Operand Conditioning.

I'm not sure what major of study you're in.  I suspect sometimes you jump too far from the fact that a conclusion is made before a thorough investigation of the subject is being examined.

It’s interesting that you mentioned operand conditioning in explaining why you believe a clinical test on a mouse that can be applied the same on a horse.  Operand conditioning is a generic psychological term to explain common animal behavior under certain levels of reinforcement.  There're some areas that we have to avoid in quoting examples.  Let’s take a dog for instance.  You may induce a dog to copy your posture by giving it a piece of meat.  However, you’re unlikely to have the same result obtained while you do it to a horse by giving a carrot.  Similarly, I’m also sure that you are not going to copy a dog’s gesture even though I give you a meat, right?

To me, a horseman is someone who understands the innate characteristics and behavior of the horse and can work with horse to cause him to think and act in certain ways.  This is a person who can bring out the potential of a horse without taking away this dignity through force or mechanical means. 

Horsemanship is a huge subject and there is a myriad of explicit and tacit knowledge available often with apparently conflicting ideas on how to arrive at our goals. 

Like many professions, horsemanship at its best is an ART and is made up of many factors, some of which are intangible.  Horsemanship is not prescriptive, it’s creative and dynamic and each scenario is unique.  However, science, theory, method, tools and techniques underpin and support of art, so having enough information is paramount only as a starting point.

Let me illustrate this a bit, I use the concept of playing flute.  There’re only eight fundamental notes, and yet the combinations on the holes are infinite.  You may aspire to the artistic genius of a concert flute player but the first step you have to take is to understand the theory and learn to play scales.  The better skills you get, the less you have to think and the more intuitive and creative you become. 

I’m not saying anything wrong with the apply of operand conditioning in a clinical test of a mouse.  This applies truly only on a mouse.  When tested on a horse, we still need to have sufficient sampling so as to collect sufficient data to eliminate the deviation.  Just be aware of that some animals or insects can really cheat, when you perform a “test”, e.g. cockroach

The real purpose of what Natural Horsemanship is achieving is not entirely about pressure and release.  Many people get it wrong.  It’s in fact a matter of a game of building trust and taking leadership, in a horse’s term.

 

[此贴子已经被作者于2009/12/17 15:29:45编辑过]

Hi 無馬,

Thanks for pointing out the stuff I might have missed. Appreciate it.

I major in science and engineering. I deal mostly with 0 and 1 so the analog ideas sometimes make my brain non-function.

What do you major in? You write perfect English.

The followings are just my personal opinions. As I always said, you ask people for opinions, you go to your horses for answers. Mine might be badly wrong. Only your horse can tell you what to do.

I think I missed one thing. In my opinion, languages horses use are not what we human can mimic. We do not have the ability to pin our ears to make a nasty face showing our dominance. We do not have the teeth to bite off some coats of the ones we dislike. We do not have the feet and butt to kick away the ones that get in our way. We do not have the speed nor stamina to chase away the ones we're not fond of. That is the languages horses use. Through those languages they creat herd dynamics and they have their own life. That is my definition of horse languages. I'm not sure if you agree with me or not. At least that is my idea, and I believe we never teach them using that kind of language.

Insetead, we human start to use all kinds of methods, be it cruel or not, to teach the horses. Recent development of Natural Horsemanship is a great revolution because for the first time in centries human do not resort to forces. However, the elements human use in the natural horsemanship is not the horses' own language. Instead, it is some sort of "approach and retreat", "movement control", or "pressure and release". I personally cannot persuade myself into believeing those are horse languages. Rather, they are a carefully structured negative reinforcement procedures that, if used carefully, can result in wonderful horse/human relationship.

I'm not sure if you agree with this statement by Alexnadra Kurland :"The respect and trust is just a well trained conditioned response". to be, this just speaks the truth loudly.

I sincerely believe that a well thought-out plan, using the basic elements of learning theory, is the good way to teach an animal. I do not think using fancy words like trust or respect can get us any further in understanding what really is going on. Therefore , understanding mice and dogs can give us basic ideas how the learning starts and how good or how bad the result could be. By understanding those details, we can be better prepared in teaching the big animal we love, our horses.

You're right in saying that horses are different than other type of animals. However, if you break down the steps of learning, to me, there's not much difference. Learning happens when the basic elements are well presented. Any organism with the nero system will start the learning procedure if properly taught. Organisms fo not learn by love and love itself is a abstract idea anyway.

I like reading your post because I can feel you have a strong love to horses as well as your strong ideas in presenting what you believe to be true. I hope we can keep the discussions and let's find out which method speaks to us more. We may disagree with each other but the discussions we exchange will benefit both of us.

Thanks.

HP 

这张照片的标题我取名为《吻与闻》

我是想吻它以抒发对马儿的喜爱。可我心里深知它对我的情感几乎是“0”。

它可能只是出于本能或者说习性对我进行辨别而已。

我想诗人和调教师都会以他们自己的方法给这张照片进行完全不同的，且都是“正确”地诠释。

[此贴子已经被作者于2009/12/18 20:14:54编辑过]

其实人们在争论、讨论或者说议论一件事情时往往会因误会而产生歧义。换句话说有时争论了半天原本不是在说一件事或事情的一个方面。另外我们每个人对于同一事物的反应也是差异很大的。也就有关心程度上的巨大反差。

任何一种实用手段或者说技能都是与社会的现实状况和文化印象紧密相关的。因此批评就有两种可能，一种可能是有意义，另一种可能是没有意义。也就是这个批评是否起到作用，是否对现实差生影响。

另外，我们主张一种手段代替另一种手段时，这本身也是一种对所要代替的那种手段的批评！那检验这种手段批评是否有意义在一定程度上就不只是我们的主观愿望，或实施的过程，而是结果。

我喜欢的批评是更温和一些的或者更保守一些的形式。

今天参观了澳大利亚博物馆，拍了几张照片。我希望大家边看边和我一起思考动物的世界一直以来的千奇百态的现实。

这些是食肉动物

 

这些就吃草

 

没有了外表，人与他们的宠物区别更明显了。是什么使人和宠物变成了这样的关系？是千万年来的人类社会存在的原因。狗就区别于其它的犬科动物了。

 

这个标本正是我们在讨论的一个话题，不管什么驯马法，不管人到与否，反正人几千年一直在马背上。事实是今天的马比几千年以前的马幸运的不只是被宰杀吃肉了，其中很多用了更人性化的手段进行调教了，这不是某些人的进步，也不是马的进步，而是人类社会的进步。但是不管怎么进步，不管主人多么喜爱他们的良驹，现在的马还是不能和人平起平坐，人还是要骑在马背上的。

[此贴子已经被作者于2009/12/18 20:17:42编辑过]

謝謝老師.

相形之下我太執著己見...

再一次謝謝.

HP

能說出這句話就証明你會聽別人的意見,並不是執著己見.

那些經常指責別人執著己見的才是真正的執著己見.

猪，养着是为了有一天能用它做猪肉炖粉条的；

狗，养着是为了有一天能让它看家护院的；

马，养它驯它骑它是为了让我们看到更多的精彩比赛的；

人与人之间尚且不能平起平坐，何况马乎？

 

赵老师和楼上各位的发言太精彩了！

又学到了很多东西。

其实就象楼上说的，

你是为吃猪肉，可你得给猪提供基本的食物，休息的地方，人道屠宰。可你不能瘦肉精，养垃圾猪，再灌脏水把猪给弄死。

你养狗，不管是看家还是当宠物，你得喂，照料，不能遗弃。不能不打疫苗，或散放。

同样，马也是如此。你可能把这当亲吻，把马当宣泄感情的对象；但更应该从科学或现实角度，或者说从马的角度来理解，这意味着什么。

这就是为什么看HP版，还有赵老师的贴子，总是很让人感动的缘故。

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那什么样的 方法是最好的啊，？？？、？？？？？？？

请问，现在什么样的驯马方法是 最好的

>请问，现在什么样的驯马方法是 最好的

沒有固定的答案.完全看你對不同方法認識的深度與自己的意願.

試問,有沒有什麼樣的教育方式,是適合所有的學生?

心中一把尺,自我拿捏罷了.

 "沒有固定的答案.完全看你對不同方法認識的深度與自己的意願.

試問,有沒有什麼樣的教育方式,是適合所有的學生?

心中一把尺,自我拿捏罷了."

That's the point, 100% agree!

[此贴子已经被作者于2009/12/23 14:58:01编辑过]

QUOTE:

以下是引用mustang在2009/12/16 16:20:00的发言：

如果，您愿意探讨，我倒是有一种想法！

我只用自然训练法来检测马匹的思维，运动模式，以及他们对我的指令的反应。

以得到或者说选择我需要的适合的马匹，而从不用它来训练马匹。

因为我认为自然训练法是针对能接受人但是有问题的马才奏效的，一匹已经是很好能接收指令，很好的能作出动作的嘛，就不再需要这种方法在继续训练了。我只会在马出现问题的时候把它用来作为纠正的手段，而马要作为学习来接受，而不是作为惩罚。

动物的智商有限，需要时间慢慢去理解人的意图。但是，这些意图必须是连贯的，一旦断线，他们是不会举一反三的。

所以，我倒着使用自然训练法，来检测马匹的品质。而训练我遵循多骑马，多运动，多工作的最原始法则。

不论怎么说：马还是要用来骑的。

您说呢？

其实每天训练之前做几个练习，可以判断当天的状态，对于训练非常有帮助。

QUOTE:

以下是引用Huszar在2009/12/25 23:01:00的发言：

其实每天训练之前做几个练习，可以判断当天的状态，对于训练非常有帮助。

是的，其实从马厩里带龙头或者是到散放场去带马回来的时候，路上就可以做了。牵引缰的效果，马的状态，马对人的态度决定了今天的训练内容和需要修正的东西。

除了每天固定需要训练的内容外，我会按照上述的观察加一点小科目。直到马匹完全稳定下来，这段时间差不多要从2.5岁-5甚至6岁。

郭兄，什么时候回来一聚啊？

QUOTE:

以下是引用mustang在2010/1/2 10:05:00的发言：

是的，其实从马厩里带龙头或者是到散放场去带马回来的时候，路上就可以做了。牵引缰的效果，马的状态，马对人的态度决定了今天的训练内容和需要修正的东西。

除了每天固定需要训练的内容外，我会按照上述的观察加一点小科目。直到马匹完全稳定下来，这段时间差不多要从2.5岁-5甚至6岁。

郭兄，什么时候回来一聚啊？

这位老师说的对。

我理解是：道理好懂，但怎么才能做出正确的判断，掌握机会，是最难的。

例如，养花，缺水时要浇水，缺肥时要施肥，但首先要知道它现在是否缺水。及早发现才行。

对马儿也是，它是否紧张，为什么紧张。。。。营养、运动。。。这都要有一个数。这就要靠经验了。

而且每一匹马的指标不可能一样，对这个马的正确判断，对另一个可能 就是错的。。。。

学问很深，我佩服有经验的Horseman